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 Post subject: Re: Let's talk about torture [SPOILERS]
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 10:17 pm 
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Nebulae wrote:
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Except that he already destroyed Imoens' mind before the game begun. Just read the dialogues in the dungeon.


I agree, I always felt that most of the torture was done in chateu Irenicus we see some evidence of this when he say "I won't let you leave , not when I'm so close to unlocking your powers" she's broken in spellhold because Irenicus had just removed her soul, not because she was tortured more in spellhold

I think that one was more pointed towards the PC, which showed symptoms much earlier than imoen did (innate spells).

Then again, we don't know exactly how long the characters have been held captive in chateau irenicus. To my interpretation, it couldn't have been longer than the torture in spellhold.
Remember that the game's intention is that you need AT LEAST one month to get to spellhold, if not longer (you need 3 days for all the dreams, all journeys outside of athkathla take more than 16 hours, etc.). Of course you can do it much faster, but that is just because of this weird sickness called powergaming we all suffer from.

@Nebulae
I think the lines Irenicus says about the spark and stuff was more pointed towards "pure" feelings. After all, cloning usually also clones personality (if you stay away from the 'soul' approach and just go by science ... i mean; we both know that feelings don't come from the 'soul' but from the brain ;) ).
And the part of the dryads ... come one, since when means "touched me" always sexual acts? It could also be related to torture or psychological stuff.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's talk about torture [SPOILERS]
PostPosted: Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:37 pm 
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Again I will take a more personal view in this matter.
(Why -since i like RPG games it helps to see de depth of a character not to see a NPC as some mix of emotions and lose quotes )
I am Irenicus I was an Elf Archmage I feel the power of the gods I have more then a milenium to live, in my power I am second to the gods themselves.
I am so close I can almoust taste the power... I only need a little more, just a bump and I will be a God, (Still look at the view its not evil or power hungry its still just understanding of his own power) and then your sister the person you trust tells you how to get the power, just a comment, casual nothing more...
You Keep living, you can not find any other way, the one sly just dose not want to go away. (Do you ever have the problem that when you once have a fixed solution you just cant think of any other even if you know the one you figured out is very complicated - like in coding when you thing of a way to tackle an algorithm) It just sticks in the mind of the Archmage, your life is endless but with all your power you still lack the impact to truly help, your people...
But the idea is wild insane... But still its a solution to the problem...
And then you think maybe your very close you don't need all the power of the tree maybe only a little so nobady will suffer. And then you try, and you find out... its a big bit... a huge part... and you already have committed the hideous act... to stop now is to lose everything you already lost everybody now you wont even get the reward? All or nothing...
And your wife is forced to stop you... and as your punishment your millennium is changed to a day only couple of seasons...(the perspective of time) and now you don't have the immortality of an elf you only have little time... no time to show remorse to ask for forgiveness (Look at how the amount of time wee "Human race" gained it only made all the paper work bigger the same is for the elf's to truly say I'm sorry in elf community it would be a 100 year old pence ) I am lost... my love.. she had to stop me... I killed our love -Irenicus - in elvish it means crushed -at least in my translation... I crushed my dreams I shattered my life... my sister suffers the same sentence...
There is a way... the way to still have time... just gain a little time... I'm a mage I have power... But how to gain life??
Become a Lish ? No I would be heartless then I only be a monster...
But there are the children of bhaal ... thy will only bring suffering and pain or so the prophecy says...
So who would miss them?? I will take some of their essence and gain my peoples forgiveness...
But the experiments were more terrible then I expected... I need to experiment with life force to see the difference between common people and half gods... Driades , the Jinn all the subjects of experiments... they have a reason... they are a test to my skills to be able to remove the bhaal power from his children...
But his experiments twisted him the monstrosities he has done... slowly made him heartless... no feelings he did it all for love... and he slowly stopped feeling even that... so he tried to remember her face... to remember the feelings but they ware dead... he has seen to much now ... his good side has been twisted bay what he has done (Like a soldier who has seen to much killing they just look dead inside ) And now I only remember I wanted the bhaal power... So I will get it.... My sister lost hope in the project she tried immortality bay becoming an undead... it failed...

Now to the main part of the post why would Irednicus want plesure from the females in his dungeon?
For what reason he would want it??
He has the clones he has tried it with them in may opinion... Why ?
They look as his love... he has tried to use lust to ignite love.... it did not work... he has tried to feel love for the dryads it also failed... so he gave them to the dwarfs... there is no need for them any more...
Remember He thinks he is dying like a patient with cancer...
Irenicus is now very near his limits... In may opinion he broke Imoen and himself... lost all the good in him... This Evil Bhaal spawn is innocent like a child... and to have its power i need to brake the child... he showed the evil to Imoen... he has seen the monster in her grow... he took this innocent girll and killed her bay making the evil in her strong... its taking her mind...
Now Irenikus is a total monster he not only committed evil... he now contaminates others with it... he knows it... and he brakes... he looses total control over himself loses himself in his own wickedness... There is no limits to what I can do I have done the worst and I still live... The gods don't care... I can not be stoppaed...
He is lost with power all he wants from Imoen is to open her up like an clam... and extract the pearl... the taint... so she is eager to see the blood... she likes the bodies... she is fascinated by death... but no rage... I hit her...
she just falls... I torture her she cries....
But no rage... (maybe Imoen felt guilty for liking death for the bhaal taint to grow stronger so she felt she deserved it) so how to push her... She is so close... now Irenicus has not experimented whith Bhalspown before... he knows they have power... now Would YOU risk all You have on a Bet??
Would you rape her yourself? I would not... I have sacrificed to much to lose it all on one part...her taint is strong Who knows what will happen if she will fall in a rage? Better play it safe let somebody else try to rape her...
I don't remember if he has done something or not sorry but the dworf died...
And I bet that Irenicus was watching maybe throe a wizards eye or other device ... but just to see what happens to see the taint at work...
To see the part of her soul in action ....
Now after that he finally knows the whole element of her power... of her soul... the thing he needs...
One more time Ireniucus would not need imoen as a concubine... he has the clones as disposable as a tissue he can make the clones look like anything... and then kill it and make a new... why bother with keeping them longer alive?
He has tried that it did not work so for what would he need them alive...
This are just clones not real people.

Zwiebelchen
... come one, since when means "touched me" always sexual acts? It could also be related to torture or psychological stuff.

I agree in may opinion he was much more interested in their connection to their tree and maybe in their charm power... to feel something...
Irenicus has many creatures in his dungeon in my opinion all ware to more or less extent a test subject...
The Kombion, the imps the driad all just to see different souls...


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 Post subject: Re: Let's talk about torture [SPOILERS]
PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 6:24 pm 
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Quote:
Then again, we don't know exactly how long the characters have been held captive in chateau irenicus. To my interpretation, it couldn't have been longer than the torture in spellhold.
Remember that the game's intention is that you need AT LEAST one month to get to spellhold, if not longer (you need 3 days for all the dreams, all journeys outside of athkathla take more than 16 hours, etc.). Of course you can do it much faster, but that is just because of this weird sickness called powergaming we all suffer from.


hello Zwiebelchen it's nice to hear from you again. I think the length of Imoens stay in spellhold is largely irrelevant because I (and I think also Despair) argues that there was little to no torture in spellhold simply because Imoen had already in her unconscious accepted her bhaalspawn nature (or perhaps suffering or evil if you want to go a little bit more metaphysical) and this was all Irenicus torture was really about for her to be "aware" there were simply no need to continue to torture her

Quote:
@Nebulae
I think the lines Irenicus says about the spark and stuff was more pointed towards "pure" feelings. After all, cloning usually also clones personality (if you stay away from the 'soul' approach and just go by science ... i mean; we both know that feelings don't come from the 'soul' but from the brain ;) )
.

I don't think so myself as Imoen tells the dryads "your charms they don't work on him anymore do they?" implying that at some point Irenicus did feel something akin to what he felt for Ellesime, and maybe, just maybe he clung to that before that to vanished as part of the seldarines curse

Quote:
And the part of the dryads ... come one, since when means "touched me" always sexual acts? It could also be related to torture or psychological stuff.


I realize it doesn't by it self, but the dryads introduce themselves as "we are his possessions" "we are his servants" " we are his concubines"

and a concubine is by it's very definition a lover isn't it?

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"it is the very last inch of us..."

"but within that inch we are free"


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 Post subject: Re: Let's talk about torture [SPOILERS]
PostPosted: Thu Jul 21, 2011 9:54 pm 
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Siarczan wrote:
He is lost with power all he wants from Imoen is to open her up like an clam... and extract the pearl... the taint... so she is eager to see the blood... she likes the bodies... she is fascinated by death... but no rage... I hit her...
she just falls... I torture her she cries....
But no rage... (maybe Imoen felt guilty for liking death for the bhaal taint to grow stronger so she felt she deserved it) so how to push her... She is so close... now Irenicus has not experimented whith Bhalspown before... he knows they have power... now Would YOU risk all You have on a Bet??
Would you rape her yourself? I would not... I have sacrificed to much to lose it all on one part...her taint is strong Who knows what will happen if she will fall in a rage? Better play it safe let somebody else try to rape her...
I don't remember if he has done something or not sorry but the dworf died...

And why would she rage when raped if she didn't during the torture?

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 Post subject: Re: Let's talk about torture [SPOILERS]
PostPosted: Fri Jul 22, 2011 10:25 am 
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Despair wrote:
And why would she rage when raped if she didn't during the torture?

He has tried torture... and if he has used the torture to embrace the Bhaal taint... (Torture if she did not fallow the taint reward if she did) it would not work... she just would think she is doing something wrong not understanding the reason... no rage just sorrow. To put her in rage after a treatment she needs some push from a different direction... different captor.
Imoen in her state is very submissive, to Irenicus,
In my opinion Irenicus finished with his torture, however his experiments did not have to finish... He still plans something for the PC so why not get more knowledge? Push here and there ?
For Irenicus the physical torture process is over, however the magic experiments can carry on.
From Imoens point of view its not different maybe even worse, when he tortured her, he was talking to her, paid some attention,(sick it maybe however he cared in some way) now he just cast his spells and just treats her as garbage, interesting it maybe but already served its purpose.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's talk about torture [SPOILERS]
PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 12:08 am 
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I think it’s good time to practice some virtual necromancy… so, here I come :D

I’ve just finished playing out the whole mod (till the ToB end) and I must say it really made the game worth playing again after… 17 years from publishing? (suddenly, I started to feel very old, since I’ve played both games right after innitialrelease :P). Unlike any other NPC mods, the writings, level of details (random conversation during some side quest etc.) among other factors, really made ma “care” about the ultimate fate of Imoen the way I don’t think I’ve experienced in cRPG game (maybe except from PS:T 1 run, back in 1999).

But there is 1 thing within the mod that makes me wondering about it “probability” (if there is any meaning in using this term within fantasy framework) - how the hell is it in any way possible, that Imoen remains “mentally healthy” (at least to the point when she is able to function, smile and even make love with another conscious being) after all that stuff which happened in Spellhold?

I mean – according to the testimony of Imoen herself – the nature of this torture was absolutely horrific, and according to the game storyline it lasted at least 2-3 weeks (about a month I think). Sure, her mind have broken down as PC arrived Spellhold, but within hours (days?) she seems to be “all right” in the sense that she is even showing some sense of humor (if I recall correctly, PC can actually make some jokes with her and acctualy make her laugh straight after 1 initial conversation in Spellhold)
.
In my opinion, this makes a story a little bit strange – I would imagine her having some kind of PTSD symptoms for a longer period of time. And then – just about you’re leaving Underdark she’s actually well enough to make some sort of a party with PC and the rest of the team (which was, despite of the main subject of my post, very entertaining to read).

I remember I’ve been thinking – wouldn’t it be more “realistic” if there was some sort of explanation of that “unnatural mental condition” of Imoen? I mean – it might be the unexpected benefit from the Bhaal Taint within her, but I was asking myself while playing – wouldn’t some kind of i.e. magical/priest treatment of her (i.e. from Adalon, while in the Underdark) made it more reasonable to believe in?

It still bothers me when I started 2 think about it – that the trauma she had experienced in the Spellhold stays in contrast to her “mixed” behavior – one day she’s telling PC about all these abominations with tears in her eyes, next day she’s joking around and singing songs by the camps.

I wonder if anybody have similar opinion about the subject, or even better – some sort of explanation of these questions.

Of course, you can always say that "this is just a game", but I think the sole reason of this kind of mods is to make the whole story something more than just a regular game script which allows to make funny things like throwing fireballs and cutting of heads :P

Apart from this “supposed” plot holes, I think that this mod is one of the best things that happened to BG2 since it’s initial release and for that I’m sincerely grateful;)


PS. Sorry 4 my english, as it is not my basic language.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's talk about torture [SPOILERS]
PostPosted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:28 pm 
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TzL wrote:
...


I actually thought the PC is the reason for her not going insane. It seems implied by the conversations (maybe not and it was a wishful thinking on my part).

I mean there are the dreams and the Bhaal essence even in unmodded game.

Also your English seems better than most posts by native kids these days ;)


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