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 Post subject: Let's talk about torture [SPOILERS]
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 8:11 pm 
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So, I'm reading Imoen Romance: The Novel and I got to the rape part.
I just don't buy that part of the romance.

It goes like this:
So, Irenicus is using horrible physical torture, horrible magical torture, horrible stuff like "showing death" and it doesn't work and then finally he uses tasteless rape once and it finally works. Yay!

I don't find it believable.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's talk about rape
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 9:20 pm 
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Okay. Despair topic + rape topic is setting off all sorts of warning bells in my head but unspecified deity save me, I'll bite.

In what sense do you not buy it? Calling it tasteless implies your complaint is that it was written. But your actual complaint is about how it doesn't fit in the fiction. I'll assume both.

As part of the mod:
The fact that Imoen was kidnapped and relentlessly tortured to the point where her mind shattered (albeit temporarily) is almost entirely ignored in vanilla BG2. So I can understand an expansion on the details of the horrible things she experienced. I can also understand the inclusion of things that the protagonist didn't go through since if the protagonist had gone through the same things she did, hir mind would be as broken as Imoen's by the end of Spellhold. Is it tasteless? Yeah. Was it necessary? No. But I can still buy it happening in the context of the story. Which brings us to...

As part of the fiction:
This is the part where I'm unable to make a viable argument. I don't think anyone could. It's too far outside of anything we've experienced for us to even guess how it would affect a person. You don't buy that weeks of torture followed by that could break a person so thoroughly. I believe it could. So... Agree to disagree on this bit, I suppose.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's talk about rape
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 10:19 pm 
Junior Acolyte

Joined: Sat Feb 20, 2010 9:58 am
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Didn't we already discuss it? I thought we drew the conclusion that Imoen was raped...
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=85&hilit=imoen+rape+irenicus+torture


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 Post subject: Re: Let's talk about rape
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 11:04 pm 
Acolyte of Imoen

Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:44 pm
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abdel wrote:
Didn't we already discuss it? I thought we drew the conclusion that Imoen was raped...
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=85&hilit=imoen+rape+irenicus+torture


I don't believe it. That's another Despair/rape topic and I jumped right into that one too! I'm clearly a glutton for punishment.

Regardless, that topic was about mind rape and eventually arguing about whether or not any physical rape took place in Renny's hideout. This one (I'm assuming) is more focused on taking a critical view of the rape event in this mod and determining whether it was appropriate to include it and/or believable in terms of the fiction.

Despair still hasn't answered which.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's talk about torture [SPOILERS]
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 11:12 pm 
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[Mod-God note: editted the subject line to reflect the fact that there are plot spoilers for those few who haven't already played the mod]

Despair wrote:
So, I'm reading Imoen Romance: The Novel and I got to the rape part.
I just don't buy that part of the romance.

It goes like this:
So, Irenicus is using horrible physical torture, horrible magical torture, horrible stuff like "showing death" and it doesn't work and then finally he uses tasteless rape once and it finally works. Yay!

I don't find it believable.


In the mod:
Lord M leaves what exactly was done to Imoen kind of up to the imagination. I say "kind of" because yes, it's established that there's horrible physical torture, etc., but the really gory details aren't touched. Then the duergar is called in, stuff happens, and it's strongly hinted at that Imoen breaks to the point of becoming the Slayer (or Ravager, whatever).

In the fiction:
I flesh out a bit of what might have possibly have happened on a more detailed level, and tone down the hints of Ravageness. Other than that, I pretty much ran with Lord M's idea, since I was following the mod.

Would it work...? Well, honestly, I think it would. Not because rape is just inherently 1000 times more evil than, say, breaking someone's bones one by one and then magically healing them to do it all over again. I think, however, that if you have tortured someone that thoroughly and they have (as Imoen suggests in Crumbling Down) become in some sense 'numb' to it, then throwing in a brand new horror of a brand new type, could very well be the straw that broke the camel's back. Rape *could* be considered "the best of both worlds" as far as torture -- it is both physically painful and emotionally/mentally scarring. So perhaps that's the point.

I will say, however, that the concept of Imoen being raped by a duergar while help captive, seems to have absolutely no canonical basis in the actual game events/dialog. (But then, so much of mod-related stuff in general has no basis in the actual core game.)

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 Post subject: Re: Let's talk about rape
PostPosted: Sat May 21, 2011 11:15 pm 
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MechaEspio wrote:
Okay. Despair topic + rape topic is setting off all sorts of warning bells in my head but unspecified deity save me, I'll bite.

In what sense do you not buy it? Calling it tasteless implies your complaint is that it was written. But your actual complaint is about how it doesn't fit in the fiction. I'll assume both.

The novel is a novelization of the mod, so it applies mainly to the mod.

Tasteless like in his (Irenicus) execution of rape being tasteless :P . A Duergar, no foreplay and no lube. Yuck.

MechaEspio wrote:
As part of the mod:
The fact that Imoen was kidnapped and relentlessly tortured to the point where her mind shattered (albeit temporarily) is almost entirely ignored in vanilla BG2. So I can understand an expansion on the details of the horrible things she experienced. I can also understand the inclusion of things that the protagonist didn't go through since if the protagonist had gone through the same things she did, hir mind would be as broken as Imoen's by the end of Spellhold.

The protagonist was prancing around Amn and having adventures while Imoen was locked up in Spellhold and experimented upon.
Not to mention that Spellhold probably had many drugs and magical devices that could produce a similiar effect. It was a madhouse after all.

Not to mention that there weren't any Duergar in Spellhold.

MechaEspio wrote:
As part of the fiction:
This is the part where I'm unable to make a viable argument. I don't think anyone could. It's too far outside of anything we've experienced for us to even guess how it would affect a person. You don't buy that weeks of torture followed by that could break a person so thoroughly. I believe it could. So... Agree to disagree on this bit, I suppose.

I believe that torture alone was enough. Take in account that he didn't have to hold back and would have many magical means of torture that can create pain, including psychological pain that is unimaginable to us. To be honest, I think when he went to using no holds barred torture, he already went beyond the badness territory of rape.

To me it looks like people can't actually imagine how bad torture, especially magical torture is, so the author of the mod decided to include rape because he wanted emotional impact and apparently everyone in the West personally knows someone that was raped and can imagine that rape is psychologically damaging. Basically it's a cheap psychological trick, rape as a drama.
It worked in case of one guy from the previous forum much too well - he went berserk and beaten up his roommate so badly that he ended up in hospital :roll: . For some weird reason he didn't go berserk because of the torture despite that torture is horrible stuff.

abdel wrote:
Didn't we already discuss it? I thought we drew the conclusion that Imoen was raped...
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=85&hilit=imoen+rape+irenicus+torture

The only proofs shown there indicated that she was sexually molested by Irenicus when she was in his dungeon, not that she was raped by a Duergar in Spellhold.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's talk about torture [SPOILERS]
PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2011 9:31 am 
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Joined: Sat Feb 20, 2010 9:58 am
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In the mod:I'd want her to not be raped ordinarily, but I have a major problem with it: There's so much evidence indicating she was raped.

To be honest, I'd prefer she be raped by Irenicus in the first dungeon, because it seems to have canonical evidence and it would add more drama when fighting Irenicus.

I wouldn't want her to be raped by a druegar... it doesn't seem Canon, and kills off a lot of the drama... Your killing a crimelord mage that had a dead dwarf rape your sis as opposed to a crimelord mage that raped your sis. You're going to hate one a bit more.

And TCDale: I think you're dismissing some core gameplay dialogue, remember the banter between Sarevok and Imoen? By order of operations it seems pretty obvious Imoen has a thing for the main character. Not sure if it counts, but here's a part of Viconia Imoen banter:
[after Viconia demands Imoen act as mainchars personal slave and cater to his/her every whim]
Imoen: What about you, Viconia? How many times has (CHARNAME) saved *your* life? Would you do the same for (HIM or HER)? Would you put *your* life on the line?
(If Viconia romance is in progress)
Viconia: I ... I would. I love (HIM or HER) and you know this weakness of mine exists. Perhaps it is good that we have ... something ... in common, no? But enough of your mewling ... let us be off.

I suppose it would be pretty hard to market a game with intimacy where she's your sister, even if it was only in a spiritual sense.

I've read halfway through the book, but can't find it. From what I read here it's probably not a very bad thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's talk about torture [SPOILERS]
PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2011 1:39 pm 
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abdel wrote:
In the mod:I'd want her to not be raped ordinarily, but I have a major problem with it: There's so much evidence indicating she was raped.

To be honest, I'd prefer she be raped by Irenicus in the first dungeon, because it seems to have canonical evidence and it would add more drama when fighting Irenicus.

I wouldn't want her to be raped by a druegar... it doesn't seem Canon, and kills off a lot of the drama... Your killing a crimelord mage that had a dead dwarf rape your sis as opposed to a crimelord mage that raped your sis. You're going to hate one a bit more.

Did you miss the part of the game where the mage is a complete monster that tortures <CHARNAME> and Imoen, does horrible experiments on people, murders a lot of people, is perfectly willing to destroy a whole nation to become a god, etc. or something like that?

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 Post subject: Re: Let's talk about torture [SPOILERS]
PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2011 3:31 pm 
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abdel wrote:
And TCDale: I think you're dismissing some core gameplay dialogue


No, I'm not. There's nothing in any of the dialogs that suggests Imoen was raped by a duergar. As for Imoen loving charname (or vice versa) -- that may indeed be implied, but I never said it wasn't. I said there is so much mod (as in, all mods, not just this one) which isn't based on core game dialog. (For instance, most NPCs: Tashia, Fade, Kelsey, etc -- not based on core game dialog. Edwin romanceable -- I'm strongly doubting it. Etc)

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 Post subject: Re: Let's talk about torture [SPOILERS]
PostPosted: Sun May 22, 2011 7:28 pm 
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Joined: Sat Feb 20, 2010 9:58 am
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@Despair Yes, but he fails to do this. So to speak, he'd just seem much worse if he was a rapist trying to be a God. I mean, in any game, if the Mainchars romance is raped, as a mainchar, you'd get much more upset with him.

And it's like TCDale said,
Quote:

Would it work...? Well, honestly, I think it would. Not because rape is just inherently 1000 times more evil than, say, breaking someone's bones one by one and then magically healing them to do it all over again.


@TCDale Oh, I understand, gotcha.


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